CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins discuss the Cavs’ disappointing performance in Game 4 of the Eastern Conference semifinals against the Indiana Pacers. They analyze the team’s physicality issues and tactical adjustments made by the Pacers.

Takeaways:

• The Cavs suffered a significant loss in Game 4, raising concerns about their future of the series and of the team.
• Physicality and composure were major issues for the Cavs throughout the game.
• The Pacers effectively exploited mismatches and adjusted their strategy against the Cavs’ defense.
• Donovan Mitchell’s injury adds uncertainty to the Cavs’ chances moving forward in the series.
• The narrative of the Cavs being a soft team resurfaces after their performance.
• Rick Carlisle’s coaching adjustments were pivotal in the Pacers’ success.
• The Cavs need to prove they can handle playoff pressure and physicality.
• Past playoff failures haunt the current Cavs team, affecting their confidence.
• The team must find a way to respond positively to adversity in Game 5.
• The future of the Cavs hinges on their ability to adapt and overcome challenges.
• Evan Mobley needs to step up consistently for the Cavs to succeed.
• The Cavs have not shown readiness for playoff intensity.
• The series is not over, and the Cavs still have a chance to turn it around.
• Future moves may be necessary if the Cavs do not perform well.

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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation! I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. We’re coming to you guys. After a demolition of the CAVS In Game 4 in the Eastern Conference semifinals, they lost 129, 109 to the Indiana Pacers. And Chris, you’re in Indiana and I know that Gamebridge field house was rocking at an all time high because Indiana won a wire to wire and had a lead at one point of 44. The Cavs made eight field goals in the first half. Eight. Five of them were triples. A disappointing and embarrassing showing for the Cavs in yet another must win situation. And I want to start from the very beginning. One, the Cavs were making shots and then it felt like they had a moment where they could swing the momentum when Benedict Matheran punched DeAndre Hunter in the sternum. And then DeAndre Hunter, of course, retaliated, pushing him to the ground. And Benedict Matheran got ejected and the Cavs got away with DeAndre Hunter staying in the game. And yet the Cavs were trailing by 12 at that point. And the lead for the Indiana Pacers only ballooned with Matheran off the floor. Chris, the moment the Cavs not responding, kind of indicative of this entire series, huh?

Chris Fedor: So I’m here in Indy. I’m staying at this really, really nice hotel. Shout out to the Indiana Pacers for carving out some rooms for a lot of NBA folks to stay at this hotel. And I stroll in to my hotel around like 12:30 or so, and down in the lobby is one of the referees from tonight’s game, and he has a stiff drink in his hand. And like, that encapsulates what you needed after watching this. There were so many things that happened in tonight’s game. You had the Benedict Matheran, DeAndre Hunter thing. You had Donovan Mitchell, you had injuring himself at halftime during pre, pre halftime warmups, had Tristan Thompson trying to get into it with Andrew Nemhard, and then Indiana taking Nemhard out of the game immediately. When that happened, I mean, it was just a lot of fouls, a lot of reviews, a lot of physicality. So I don’t blame the referee who is down there having a stiff drink. If I didn’t have to podcast with you guys right now, I probably would have gotten a stiff drink as well. Just to kind of gather myself, just, just to kind of exhale, you know, Darius kept saying, it’s playoff basketball, it’s going to be physical. But like, at some point, the Cavs are going to have to show that not only can they match the Force, but they understand the right way to match the Force. And I think those are two different things. Like, I think the Cavs tried to fight back. The only fight that they showed all night long was when DeAndre Hunter stomped toward Benedict. Matheran died. DeAndre told me he didn’t say anything to him, just pointed at him and then shoved him with two hands. Like that was the only fight that they showed all night. But it’s like when those things tend to happen to this team, they don’t respond the right way to physicality. They kind of go over the top and lose their composure and get caught up in that. They just don’t know how to harness that when it comes to a playoff environment. And Indiana handled that moment a lot better than the Cavs did. They handled the physicality of the game from the very beginning to the end a lot better than the Cavs did. And at some point, this team is going to have to prove that it’s not the one from two years ago that got punked by the Knicks. It’s not the one that has been labeled soft. It’s not the one that has questions about its physicality and its ability to withstand that physicality. But as of right now, they’re trailing this series three to one. All of those questions have popped up again, and that narrative is basically writing itself. It’s like a springtime tradition that the Cavs get out, toughed out, physicaled out, hustled, outplayed out, executed out, everythinged by a team that seems to be a lesser opponent, at least on paper.

Speaker A: Jared Allen likes to say about this exact conversation that narratives are hard to change in this league. They’re even harder to change when you perpetuate them, is what I would say. Guys, this team hasn’t changed. Hasn’t changed. I. I watched them tonight. I see the team in Orlando on the road last year. I see the DeAndre Hunter, Benedict Matheran thing. I think of Darius Garland, Jalen Suggs, chest to chest, and how the Orlando Magic absolutely dominated that game from that point forward. I was thinking today about the Pistons game earlier this year where Jared Allen absolutely tattooed. I believe it was a Sara Thompson. And they almost blow the game and Darius Garland has to save them with a game winner. And that becomes the story. And it’s like, but wait, what happened over here? That part where you guys almost blew the game. We sure we shouldn’t be talking more about that? We, the collective, we got fooled by Miami. We all had so much respect for Heat culture. I still do still love Eric Spoelscher, still love Bama Adebayo, but that was a 37 win team. That’s the reality of the situation. The playoffs started in this round for the Cavs and what about this series suggests to anybody the Cavs are closer to the 64 win juggernaut version of themselves the than the team we’ve been seeing the last couple years. What about it? I don’t see it. I don’t see it at all. There’s a famous Steve Kerr quote about saying like you play basketball and that says a lot about you as a person. It can tell a lot about a person by the way they play basketball. I don’t think we are in the position to be like necessarily evaluating someone’s mental makeup. But I’m just telling you, by Steve Kerr’s measure, if you want to see how the Cavs handle adversity, just turn on this game. Turn it on. It’ll tell you everything you need to know.

Ethan Sands: Because we’re making some comparisons. They’re trying to figure out how to shape how we can picture this game and put this into perspective. I don’t know how many post game press conferences or interviews Kenny Atkinson has done this season that have been below 10 minutes. His interview tonight, four and a half minutes long. That’s it.

Chris Fedor: Well, many of us weren’t there, right, unfortunately, because the seating in gamebridge Fieldhouse is up there, it’s in the mezzanine level and there is one elevator up and one elevator down that the media uses and every single employee uses. So as soon as the game goes final, everybody is rushing to that elevator and you can fit maybe, maybe eight people in there. That’s it. At a time. So the line for the elevator was like as long as the line outside the concert that was here in Indiana yesterday. It was some country singer who sings a song called Pretty Little Poison or something like that. I don’t know. There are a lot of cowboy hats and cowboy boots in my hotel yesterday. It was wonderful. But. But that’s how long that line was. So many of us who would have asked questions did not make it down there in time. And because the Cavs were flying out and because the game was effectively over at halftime, you know, Kenny got to the podium very, very quickly, more rapidly than usual. So there’s certainly some context around his post game session with the reporters going as quickly as it did. But. But yeah, I mean, I think at some point there, there’s not a lot to say about this, like, how much can you say over and over and over again? We did not meet their force. They brought the physicality from the very beginning, and we didn’t respond to the level that we needed to. You know, Kenny, that there wasn’t too much tactically in this game. I think there was, and I think that played a part in 80 to 39 at halftime. You know, before Donovan Mitchell got hurt, before the Cavs basically raised the white flag at the start of the fourth quarter, Indiana did some smart things. They figured out the zone in their first four possessions against the Cavs. Zone. The Cavs went to their zone, by the way, 90 seconds, 90 seconds into this game, they tried that zone. And the first four possessions that Indiana had against that zone, it went 4 for 4 with three three pointers. So they figured that out. They were more prepared for it. They kept screening Evan Mobley and then rolling that guy down the lane. So that was a nice little wrinkle that they did offensively to kind of counter what it was that the Cavs did that flummoxed them in the second quarter. Because if you think back to game three, like, the only quarter that wasn’t close was the second quarter when the Cavs went to that zone and completely blew the game open. The rest of the quarters were played within a couple of points, but the second quarter, the zone changed everything and allowed the Cavs to create that distance and forced Indiana to play from behind. But they figured out the zone. They had really, really good counters to that zone.

Speaker A: And.

Chris Fedor: And the other thing that they did is they just obliterated every single small player in the post. They took advantage of those mismatches. They looked for those mismatches in a way that they were not disciplined enough to do in game three. Certainly Pascal Siakam worked in the post against Max Strus and bullied him. Obi Toppin against Darius Garland. Miles Turner against Max Strus. So every time there was a switch with one of the Cavs smaller players on one of Indiana’s front court players, they took advantage of that. They exploited that. They looked for those opportunities. So I definitely think there were some tactical things that Indy did from game three to game four that went beyond just the other stuff that we’ve already talked about that were really, really smart and contributed to them scoring 84 freaking points in the first half against the Cavs defense.

Ethan Sands: I think that was the biggest change from over the course of this series is how productive they were in the paint in today’s game. Like in the first half, I think it was. They were up 30 to 6 in paint points. And the Cavs have had the advantage on that side of the court for a majority of this series. And yet it felt like the Pacers, whether you want to say it was the shooting, whether you want to say it was how the Cavs couldn’t make a shot, they weren’t getting the looks to get those opportunities. And then on the other end, the Pacers were just, as Chris said, obliterating them in the painted area, especially because they were trying to get those switches. And it wasn’t switches at the point of attack, it was switches in the paint. And that’s how crazy and how tactically savvy Rick Carla has been and has shown to be, right? I think after today’s game, Tyrese Halliburton called him a savant because of how he’s been able to not only help everybody on that team rise to the occasion, but just put them in the positions to be successful. And the Cavs didn’t have an answer to what they were able to do on the interior in tonight’s game. I mean, they were outscored 58 to 32 in the paint. It was a masterclass of taking a weakness and turning it into an advantage. And I think that depicts what has happened throughout this series and, and how adjustments continue to have been made. And I’m not trying to throw a wrench in his Coach of the Year candidacy because he more than deserved it for the 64 wins in the regular season, but these are the moments that the Cavs went and got Kenny Atkinson for the play by play adjustments. Not just game to game, but play by play, see something that’s happening and make an adjustment. And it felt like whether he did or didn’t, the Cavs simply didn’t have an answer for what the paces were going to do on either side of the ball.

Speaker A: I get what Kenny’s saying. It’s not a tactical thing. I mean, when you’re down by 40, let’s say because they lost by 20. That’s true. But like you guys are saying, there are tactical things that led to that, that, that started the snowballing, right? Like, you really didn’t think Rick Carlisle wasn’t going to figure out the zone. Really, that was kind of, I don’t know, you break it out that quickly and you stick with it. After getting burned a couple times, that tells me the Cavs, like, thought, thought they had, like, a queen on the chessboard here a little bit, you know, And Rick Carl is just like, dude, I’ve seen a thing or two. This Guy’s got over 900 wins in the regular season in his career. He’s going to be a top 10 in wins in regular season and playoffs before this is all said and done. Four times this guy’s been top five coach of the year. He’s been coach of the year. He’s won a title. It ain’t that simple, you know, you don’t just checkmate Rick Carlisle.

Chris Fedor: And by the way, in game three.

Speaker A: Game four. Yeah, game three. And by the way, can we once and for all, I’m not going to do this every podcast. We’re done with the shot variance conversation. We’re done with it. They shot 40% again.

Chris Fedor: Weird.

Speaker A: How does this keep happening? Maybe it’s hot shooting, but the shooting luck conversation is built for big samples, season long samples. We’ve played four games. You only need to win four games. The Pacers have won three games. They’ve shot. Well, that happens. That happens a lot. Okay. That’s what it is. By the way, you know, help. Shot variance. Pacers were in the 95th percentile in corner three frequency. That’s the most efficient shot in basketball. Take that for your expected shot value. How about that? Okay, we’re just done with that. We’re done with it. And then you know what happens when team star makes, starts making a lot of threes? You overreact. Hey, you give up points in the pink. They broke your defense. They broke your defense. And they’re really good. And after the game, to Ethan’s point, about Kenny’s short press conference, I understand the mitigating circumstances. It’s not even how short winded he was. He just looked like he didn’t know what hit him. And by the way, so did Darius Garland. After the game, what was the first question that Danny Cunningham asks? Why didn’t you meet their force? I mean, what 20 second pause, 15 second pause.

Chris Fedor: It was a long pause. Yeah.

Speaker A: And he just said. And we just didn’t. Well, that’s not a good answer. That’s not a good answer. A good answer is whether you give a good answer in that situation or not, it still happened. That to me also says, man, I didn’t see this coming. The theme of the post game presser to me was we really thought we were past this and. And we’re not.

Chris Fedor: Yeah, I mean, I, I think there’s a legitimate question here, guys, going into Game 5 about whether the Pacers have broken the Cavs, broken their spirit, broken their will. And. And look like Donovan has taken this message throughout the course of the regular season, and. And he stayed true to it over and over and over again, no matter what has happened. And it’s. How do we respond? It’s about the response. And, I mean, we’re going to find out a lot about the Cavs when it comes to Game five, how they respond, whether it’s prosperity, adversity. Donovan has always been about the response. It’s always about the response. But it’s like, you know, going into Game three, like, it was easier for them in some ways to respond to what happened in Game two. As difficult as it was to process, as emotional of an ending as that was, as much as that stung a lot of those guys, like, it was easier to respond because there was a belief in the 24 hours before game three that they were going to get their guys back. At least it was trending in the direction of having DeAndre, having Evan, having Darius. So what they could say to themselves was, all right, we’re down. Oh, two. But you know what? When Game three rolls around, we’re going to be closer to the team that won 64 games. We’re going to be closer to the team that vaulted up the conference standings in the East. We’re going to be closer to the team that was top 10 in both offense and defense, because we’re going to be whole again. So it’s like they were able to move past that because they had something to look toward. There was, like, some kind of reinforcement coming that could change the status quo of the series that could make things different for them, you know, going into Game five, like, what do they got? What are they looking toward? What’s the thing that they can hang on to and say, like, this is going to be different or this is going to change or this is going to help us. And I’m not saying that they don’t have an answer for that. It’s their job to come up with an answer for that and find solutions to everything that has gone wrong and everything that the Pacers are doing right, but it just doesn’t seem like there’s an easy answer that’s just out there. So I think we’re going to find out a lot about this team, what they’re made of, both physically and mentally. And I think there’s a real possibility that the Pacers broke the Cavs today. We’ll see. They have to prove otherwise, but, man, the feeling around the team, the way that that game was going and the body language and the looks on their face like, oh my God, what are we up against here? Sort of thing.

Speaker A: I feel like we already found out about the Cavs tonight and how they respond. And I know there’s no good answers in a situation like this, but for what Chris is saying to explain, how do they come back? Chris asked this question to Darius. What makes you think you guys can come back from 3:1? And he said again, no perfect. No perfect answers in this situation. You have to say something with a straight face, though. He said, this group has been through adversity before and how did you handle it? How did you handle it? Poorly. Real adversity. Look, the broken jaw that Darius fought through last year and played through, that’s real adversity.

Chris Fedor: Real.

Speaker A: But it didn’t go well. Playing without Evan Moble and Darius Garland in the regular season, playing well without them for like six weeks, that’s not what we’re talking about. Recovering from last season’s playoff exit, 64 wins, that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about this stuff you guys continue to struggle with. And you say you’ve been through it before, that’s why. What. And then, then he says this franchise has done it before. You know you’re going to bring the Warriors 31 lead into this. That is mind numbing to me. The best part of that, that interview was the first 20 seconds. The part that will reflect best was the first 20 seconds when he was thinking of what to say. Yeah, I again, I will say there are no perfect answers. These guys probably don’t put as much thought into these. I know they don’t put as much thought into giving these answers as we do into dissecting them. That is fact. That being said, that is not the right thing to say in that moment.

Chris Fedor: There’s another layer to this whole adversity thing, too. Regular season adversity is what it is. You understand that the regular season, not going to say it’s meaningless, but we all know what this season was about for the Cavs. It was about the playoffs. So, like this level of adversity when you’re the number one seed, when you have the target on your back, when you have all of these expectations, when you’re supporting to get to the conference finals or NBA finals, like, that’s different. The pressure is different. The feeling when you lose is different. And it’s like to some level, a lot of these guys are still learning that and still learning how to handle that. But this idea that, you know, they’ve been Together. And they faced adversity before. Not like this. Not when you’re in the number one seed. Not when you have 64 wins. Not when you set all these records and you’re supposed to either win the east or get to the conference finals. Like, this is a different level of adversity that none of these guys have ever felt before. Maybe Donovan Mitchell, maybe from his Utah days.

Ethan Sands: And I think when we talk about this, and we talk about this series and people. Darius Garland trying to reflect on the 31 Cavs come back. Me and Chris were talking about this before we pressed live on on the record. Like, LeBron James isn’t walking through that door. I think Chris might have said this in his preview article, his prediction article for this series, like, lebron’s not coming to save you. Well, your star player that has been averaging 40 points a game is now going to be playing on one leg. Literally, he had already been playing on one leg. He had a calf strain that he was dealing with, but he could not fight through an ankle injury that happened. Who knows when. Maybe exactly at halftime when he was going through warmups. Could it have been retroactive, too? Something in the first half? Hell, maybe something earlier in the series. Right. But Donovan Mitchell has to go get an MRI tomorrow. Chris, the situation is looking very bleak for the Cavs as they return home for Game 5, trailing 31 in a series. What can you tell us about Donovan Mitchell’s injury? And we know that you talked to him after the game. What did he say?

Chris Fedor: I did talk to him after the game. It was very, very brief. It was clear that he didn’t want to give a whole lot of information. It was very similar to when I tried to talk to him going into one of the games earlier in the series when it felt like he was kind of dragging his leg and he was less than 100%. And he just gave me that wry smile and he patted me on the shoulder. But I said, you have to understand, tonight more people are wondering about this because there wasn’t a play that anybody saw throughout the course of the game that led to this. It’s you came out of the locker room, you went through your warmup at halftime, and you grabbed toward your ankle and you were hunched over, and then the training staff was looking at you, and then you exited back to the locker room, and then you didn’t start the second half, and then you were ruled doubtful the rest of the way. He was like, I know, I know. You guys have a job to do. So it was myself And Joe Varden. It was right outside the Cavs locker room right before Donovan started walking out of the arena with his dad. I want to make sure that I have this right. It’s in my phone. He said, I will be good for Tuesday. You know me, I will see you Tuesday. And I kind of pressed on him and I said, hey, like, did it happen in the first half? Was there a play that you remember where it happened or did it just happen during your warm up at halftime? And he said, I will see you Tuesday. And then we asked him about the mri, said, hey, Kenny told us that you’re getting an MRI tomorrow. What’s that about? And he said, basically, it’s all out of precaution and it’s to make sure that he is good. So he doesn’t seem worried about this. And he was not wearing a boot. He was not on crutches. He didn’t look like he had that much of a limp. I looked down and he was wearing the normal shoes that he would wear to walk out of a game. It’s not like he was wearing some kind of slides or moccasins or something to kind of like take pressure off of his ankle. Everything seemed to be relatively normal for him when we talked to him after the game and when he was walking out of the arena. But I will caution everybody that Eastern Conference semifinals last year, following Game 3 in Cleveland, I talked to Donovan, the same kind of setting hallway as he was leaving in an arena. And he said that he thought he was going to be good and he wasn’t because it was a calf thing. Now, calf and ankle, little bit different. Like when you’re dealing with a calf injury, you start to get concerned about not just the calf, but the Achilles when it’s an ankle and if it is an ankle. And that’s another thing that both Joe and I asked Donovan. Was it your calf? Was it your ankle? Is it related to your calf? So we tried to get these answers out of him. He was very, very guarded. That’s the way that he’s been with injuries. He doesn’t like to disclose things. He does put on a tough guy Persona because he’s planning to fight through this. At least that was the indication that I got from talking to him briefly, is that he’s planning to fight through this and he’s hoping that the MRI shows nothing of significance that is going to allow him and it’s going to be clean enough that it’s going to allow him to play through this like he wants to. For Game five because he understands the ramifications of game five. He understands his legacy in many ways is on the line in game five. This is a guy who has been haunted by the fact that he has never gotten past the second route.

Speaker A: Is every medical test not precautionary from a player’s perspective? Of course. Yeah, of course, man.

Chris Fedor: Gives you peace of mind. If. If it comes back the way that you want it to come back.

Ethan Sands: Donovan.

Speaker A: Donovan can say whatever he wants. Is not necessarily his call. I respect the heck out of that way that guy has conducted himself the entire time he’s been here. He’s been so good in these playoffs. So good, man. Like you could make a case he’s been the best player statistically scoring efficiency wise, coming in this game. Like 31 a game on 59% true shooting in the playoffs. Miami Heat, not a real playoff team. Cool. He still did it. And he has been dragging, dragging this team in this series. He has one bad half, they go down by 40. It’s not that simple. But it is still true. But I would. I would just caution him, given the other conversation we’re having here. What are you fighting for right now? What are you fighting for? I think that. I know it won’t factor in his. Into his decision, but like before, I’m willing to, if. If there’s any risk that playing Tuesday could result in something very bad, I’m not even going to put anything out in the ether. I would at the very least do a gut check of the locker room before I make that decision. Because if I’m going to go out there and try to score 40 points again, and this is not to absolve Donovan, he was. He was not good in the first half of this game either. But like, if I’m going to go out and try and do all that stuff and it’s just going to lead to this again. What’s the fricking point?

Chris Fedor: So you don’t think they can do this? You don’t think they can come back?

Speaker A: My confidence is very low right now. Very low. Would you disagree?

Chris Fedor: No. I’m just curious. Trying to take your temperature because you keep talking as if the series is over.

Speaker A: It feels that way. It feels. I know every playoff game, if any time someone wins, it feels like the other team never going to win a game ever again. If there’s any, any kind of game to overreact to, it would be that one. I understand the Pacers have to now come play in a very difficult venue and the Cavs are going to be playing with some air of desperation. They should at least be competitive. That’s a low bar to clear in this game. But, man, given what we’re. Again, if we’re talking about how the Pacers may have broken the Cavs, what if the Pacers just start well in the first quarter? I have questions. I have questions.

Ethan Sands: Guys. We’ve seen this story before and it’s been an unfortunate one. We’ve talked about it two years ago with the Knicks, but I’m more so focused on this season was supposed to be different. Looking back two years ago, looking back last year, the Orlando Magic series, having to push that to seven games. Then you get to Boston and you realize what you’re missing, all these things. And then you come and you hire a new coach and you figure out the offense and get it to that modern era that you wanted it to be at. And you’ve set up this plan so you have all these guys being rested and healthy and ready to go with the playoffs in mind, and then you sweep the Miami Heat. Buy it. It is still the Miami Heat. You’re on the right path, you’re doing great, and then, boom, everything comes back full circle. And it feels like we’re having the same conversations. A year ago, right? Donovan Mitchell dealing with a calf injury or last year was Donovan Mitchell dealing with the knee injury. Overworks himself to the point that he hurts himself in a different manner. Right. It’s not fun to continue to have these conversations and see that Donovan Mitchell is at the forefront of all of them. Right? Donovan Mitchell last year, knee turned into a cab, didn’t want to hurt his Achilles, so sat out the last two games of the season. Jimmy, what was he playing for then? Not a whole lot. Right. Decided not to play. Chris, you had that conversation with him last year. This year, same kind of conversation. But you’ve been dragging this team for the last four games. It wasn’t like, oh, it’s been close. It’s been, oh, we are going to be haunted by game two because we could have won that game and yet we didn’t have the effort. We didn’t have the gas and the tank. We were not able to pull that game out. Then you go and win game three so you feel like you could have a lead in the series rather than being down to one. And now you lose in one of the worst games that we’ve seen in Cavs playoff history in a very long time. Three, one down. And now we’re having conversations about the team savior that you thought you were Separating yourself from. In the legacy and the history of this team, we’re back to, well, if they had LeBron, this might be different, right? If they had LeBron, maybe we have a little bit more faith. But again, going back to my point, Donovan Mitchell is the leader of this team. Donovan Mitchell is the quote, unquote, new savior. And you’re expecting him to play with a group of guys that obviously Darius Garland is fighting through a lot. DeAndre Hunter played through his thumb injury. Evan Mobley did not look great today and was doing his thing, trying to. Trying to showcase that he could still play on that ankle. But Donovan’s playing with guys that I don’t know if there’s a whole lot of confidence there right now. And Kenny Atkinson keeps talking about the physicality and the force and all these things. That’s not going to change, especially when Indiana knows that they’re going back to Rocket arena and they might have to be more physical. Darius Garland kind of complained about how the physicality wasn’t evened out in that moment that I talked about earlier with Benedict Matheran and DeAndre Hunter. Darius said that the physicality on the Cavs and decreased after that, not increased. The Pacers were able to use that moment as leverage, were able to use that moment as a platform to get to the next level of physicality and intensity and take over. The Cavs have not shown me that they are willing to live up to the moment or capable of living up to the moment when it presents themselves, because game two, you have it a minute left. You should have won that game. Game three, you come back, you get the guys back, you win game four. Hey, we have the same guys. We’re down by 41 at halftime. I just don’t know if you can look these guys in the face and without trying to make a joke. And I think there was a couple of times on the sideline where Darius Garland was, like, talking to Evan Mobley and Evan was simply just shaking his head and Darius is, like, trying to crack a smile. Like, there’s obvious things going on here that we, we understand at the basic level is frustration. But the Cavs are going to be a second apron team next year, and they can’t even make a whole lot of moves. So what is the answer?

Chris Fedor: Sure they can. Well, there are significant moves that they can make and they probably will make in the off season if this doesn’t go the way that everybody wants it to go. But that’s for a different podcast because the series isn’t over. Like, I Know that the emotions of this one and the lopsided nature of this one makes it feel. Feel like it is over. And there are a lot of things that Indiana has done in the first four games that are significantly better than the Cavs. And the Cavs have their hands full to try and figure out all of those things going into game five. But they’re still the more talented team. Don’t we agree with that?

Speaker A: Yes.

Chris Fedor: Yes. And they’ve got two of the next three at home and they are a great home team.

Ethan Sands: Even though they lost two at home.

Chris Fedor: Yeah, I mean, we understand the circumstances surrounding that. They weren’t whole. They didn’t have Darius. They were missing DeAndre, they were missing Evan. And look, I don’t know if they can do this.

Ethan Sands: I don’t know.

Chris Fedor: I have my doubts, too. But two of the next three at home, the more talented team, a team with Donovan Mitchell, we have seen him be so difficult for Indiana to deal with throughout the course of this series. Before tonight, the Cavs really haven’t had a great shooting game. The kinds of shooting games that they had for a majority of the regular season, the kind that they were able to have against Miami. So I think there. I think there’s a pathway. Obviously it’s going to be difficult. Obviously a lot of things have to go their way. But when you’re the more talented team and you’ve got two of the next three at home, it doesn’t feel as daunting.

Ethan Sands: I mean, this was the first game this series where the CAVS shot above 30% from deep.

Chris Fedor: The game, the Cav shot 40%. They wasted the 40% from three point range on this 14 of 35 for game five.

Ethan Sands: I mean, yeah, I think you’re gonna need it. Obviously we’re not having the shot variance conversation because Jimmy thinks it’s moot at this point, but I believe the Pacers are shooting around.

Speaker A: There is. There is a distinct possibility that we have a very large shot variance conversation at the end of this series, in which case I just have to hand it to the. I’ll hand it to the nerds. At that point, there will be a big mea culpa from me about shot variance. If the Cavs come back and win this series, I promise you that the.

Ethan Sands: Pacers are shooting around four and a half, 5% better than they were in the regular season from deep throughout the series. And Jimmy’s absolutely right with his point that that’s over a much larger, larger sample size. This is a smaller sample size, but it Just feels like the Cavs can’t find an answer for this Pacers offense. And the one game where they won and it felt like they, they played the best game that they have was because their defense was phenomenal. And again, we come back to the point. Rick Carlisle has figured them out. Rick Carlisle is putting his guys in position. And to me, if you’ve lost two games at home already and Donovan Mitchell after, after, I believe it was either game one or game two was like, well, we’ve already lost home court, so we just got to go out and win all of the games that we can, because the series doesn’t start until the opposing team wins on the road and they’ve already done that. So I’m not necessarily saying that the Rocket arena crowd isn’t going to be fired up, but I think it’s a situation where, as Jimmy was saying, if Indy gets out to an early run, I think that arena is going to be real quiet because they understand that the season is going to be on the verge of ending and nobody, there’s.

Chris Fedor: Going to be anxiety. There’s no doubt about that. There’s also going to be a lot of passion and fire. And if the Cavs play well at the beginning of the game, then it becomes a dungeon. You know, I think the thing with Indy, guys like they have, it feels like through the first four games they have more counters on the offensive end of the floor. They once again, they limited Tyrese Halliburton. They’ve done it for three straight games now. But like they found a different pathway. They’re like, okay, Tyrese Haliburton is getting hounded, he’s getting pressured, he’s being limited. Here you go, Pascal, go to work in the post against a small guy. Here you go. Miles Turner, either go to work in the post against a small guy or, or space it out to the three point line and bang, a bunch of backbreaking threes. Obi Toppin was really good coming off the bench and he kept exploiting mismatches as well. So it’s just like they have all these different ways. It’s not only in transition, it’s not only with Tyrese Halbert. It’s not only in the pick and roll situation. It just feels like through the first four games they’ve got more counters on the offensive end of the floor and they’ve got more consistent, consistent sources of offense than the Cavs do. And if one of the Cavs players like, doesn’t play to standard Evan Mobley twice now in this Series. And I know that he’s playing through an ankle injury, and I know he was brilliant the other night at both ends of the floor for the CAVS in Game 3. Offensively, he was dominant, you know, defensively at the top of the zone. It just. It was chaos. Indiana was just completely confused when they saw him out there. And so his impact in game three was tremendous. But he’s had two stinkers on the offensive end in this series already. Can’t be a sometimes thing. We’ve talked about this on the podcast. Can’t be a sometimes thing. Got to be consistent. And you know, Jared Allen, two points. Like, what? You kidding me?

Ethan Sands: One shot attempt.

Chris Fedor: I mean, Evan Mobley made the first basket of the first half for the Cavs, the first basket of the game for the Cavs. And then he didn’t make another one the rest of the first half. He just got ignored on the offensive end. So they have to find more balance within their offense the way that the Pacers have. They have to figure out more pathways to consistent success on offense the way that the Pacers have. Are they capable of that? I think. Sure, I think they’re capable of it. But at some point, they have to do it, and they haven’t done it enough through the first four games of this thing.

Ethan Sands: I think just like the too big lineup is what we’ve talked about, like, coming into this series, especially, and Jared Allen taking one shot in the entire game is unacceptable.

Chris Fedor: Also, you talk about just passing it to his feet, so that wasn’t great.

Ethan Sands: I’m not saying it was his fault. I’m saying that we’ve yelled at Evan Mobley to tell. Tell guys to give him the ball. Jared Allen, I think coming into the series, you had the best field goal percentage in the entire postseason. Like, you need to go down there and call for the ball, tell them to throw the ball to your hand and get into the action. Like, the other portion of this is, is the turnovers, which was absolutely unacceptable in today’s game. The Cavs had at least nine players with two or more turnovers in the game. That’s ridiculous. And they only had, if I’m not mistaken, 20 assists. So you had 22 turnovers.

Speaker A: This is the second time all year that the Cavs have had more turnovers than assists.

Chris Fedor: Yeah.

Speaker A: In a game.

Ethan Sands: And there were unforced errors. It was. It didn’t feel like.

Chris Fedor: Indy’s pressure defense had a lot to do with that.

Ethan Sands: Yeah, but the pacers only had six steals. 22.

Chris Fedor: Yeah, but some of their Turnovers were unlike poor screens or illegal screens. Darius Garland smacked Aaron Neesmith in the face while going around screen. So like, yeah, I know what you’re saying about unforced, but the pressure that Indy put on them, that played a part in it. And the Cavs just looked rattled on the offensive end of the floor.

Speaker A: Turnovers are literally a composure statistic. Literally. That’s to me the fact that the Cavs are a top five turnover rate team, top two in the playoffs, top two top five assists to turnover team the whole year. This is one thing they are elite at start to finish taking care of the ball and they just look like a different freaking team out there Tonight. I’m Interested in Game 5, how Donovan approaches this, assuming he does play, because you know he’s going to feel you want to talk about picking a spot where it’s time to put the cape on. I think he’s already picked it. I think Donovan’s going to try and score as many points as possible. But this is such a counterintuitive thing because what got you here is Donovan Mitchell hands off, empower others. But it’s clear to me watching this series that Donovan Mitchell’s not ready to do that in the playoffs yet. He can say as many nice things as he wants. And I think he believes the things that he says about Evan Mobley and Darius Garland. And yes, of course we will say again, these guys are limited by injury. That is probably factoring into his thinking. But like I’m watching you play, dude, and what you’re doing out there is not matching what you’re telling me about your teammates. I don’t think he trusts them the way he tells us that he trusts them.

Ethan Sands: Not in playoffs.

Chris Fedor: If you were not.

Speaker A: No, no, I’m just saying. I’m just saying it’s not a criticism, but you just a fact.

Ethan Sands: I mean, he only took 11 shot attempts tonight. And this made me look at this. We talked about in Game 3 why the Cavs were so successful because of their offensive rebounds, because of all these things, right? And they had 20 more shot attempts than the Pacers in that game. The Pacers had 93 shot attempts. In game four, the Cavs had 70. Obviously a big part of that is because of the turnovers, but also The Pacers scored 35 points off the Cavs is 22 turnovers. So, like, if you’re going to pick something to be bad at in one game, you can’t be bad at it in other situations too. I mean, the Cavs out rebounded Pacers 41 to 37. But it sure didn’t feel that way. Like it, it felt like Miles Turner had become Mitchell Robinson. Miles Turner was in the lane wreaking havoc. And on the TNT broadcast he had mentioned how Rick Carlisle had mentioned that they felt the offensive rebounds from the Cavs in game three, obviously. So they made that a point of emphasis. The other point of emphasis, point of attack, defense, and making sure that they get the ball out of the Cavs guards hands. Right. So obviously Donovan only played the first half, but he took 11 shots. He had taken 15 shots in the last two first halves. The Pacers ended the game with 10 turnovers. The Cavs had 12 in the first half. I believe it was, I think it was 14, might have been. I just don’t think the Cavs did anything well. And like this is a game where a lot of people are like, I want to burn the tape on this. I think you gotta watch it. But how many, how many adjustments can you make if you’ve had trouble making one adjustment after another? I just think it’s very hard for me to see them being able to pull out the series. Even if we talk about coming home in Game 5, it feels like again, a recurrence from last year, Game five being how their season ends.

Chris Fedor: Look, I mean it is certainly a situation where the Cavs, it feels like a very different team has come into this playoff series than the one that we watched throughout the course of the season. And look, playoff basketball is different than regular season basketball. We all know that. But it has been so drastic for the Cavs and from their standpoint it’s unfortunate. And I think you look at Darius, I think you look at Evan, and It still is 3:1. This thing isn’t over yet. The Cavs have an opportunity to save their season on Tuesday night, Game five at home. But there’s just, it feels like there’s a level of readiness missing from Darius Garland. And Evan Mobley still, still feels like there’s a level of readiness for what this series calls for. Ty Jerome, boy doesn’t feel like he’s ready for this kind of series, for this level of pressure, for this level of playoff intensity, for this level of scouting report, for this level of athleticism. And man, DeAndre Hunter has struggled as well. And again, no, he’s dealing with an injury. But it just through the first four games, it just doesn’t feel like the Cavs are ready for this. It doesn’t feel like they’re ready to get to the NBA Finals, to get to the conference finals. And I don’t know how you remedy that. Obviously, experience is going to help. Going through these things is going to help, but I don’t know how you remedy that enough within the contention window that you’ve already established with where Donovan Mitchell already is in his career. I don’t know how you. I don’t know how you remedy that as quickly as maybe you would want to. Actually, I do, but that’s a conversation for.

Speaker A: I was just going to say. I was just going to say if they lose Tuesday, fireworks, I’m not going to tread on that territory yet because again, that would be on. Like they do have a chance. They can flip the script here. So we don’t need to have this conversation yet. I will say about Ty Jerome, do you remember before the Miami series when he said the playoffs are just. It’s just basketball, man. Yeah, it’s just basketball is basketball or whatever he said. And we said on the podcast that for most time, for most people who say that, they get humble real freaking quickly after saying that Ty Drone was on a little bit of a tape delay, but it’s happening again. Conversation for another off season podcast in relation to that one, man, I just think. I don’t know. I thought I had today. Do we owe J.B. bickerstaff an apology? Like a little one, at least? I get it. Kenny clearly unlocked some stuff that JB didn’t. But like this idea that jb, we would always like jb, we need more of a playoff tactician. It’s like, guys, we go on the road and we forget how to play basketball. What’s the adjustment to that?

Ethan Sands: Go home, go back to home court. I think that’s. That’s really it. And Chris, I think you alluded to it a little bit with Evan Mobley and I’m going to end on this point. Game 3 was the indication that the Cavs are going to go. As Evan Mobley goes, you are as good as he is going to make you. Because Donovan in the first two games had 40 points, right? Had great outcomes, didn’t matter. Evan Mobley was able to help alleviate some of the stuff that he couldn’t do defensively, offensively, adding another scoring punch, right? And that was a conversation that we had at the beginning of the season. Some. I think it was Jason Lloyd asked at the very beginning press conference with Kenny Atkinson, can this team win with Donovan Mitchell being the best player? And Kenny Atkinson said, it doesn’t have to be Donovan. It can be Evan. It can be Donovan. It can be someone else. But, like, I think there is a realization that is hitting not only the team, but the organization, that if Evan Mobley does not make a jump onto the playoff stage, as we’ve seen him do, but consistently. And Jimmy, you said this on multiple occasions, Superstars, the biggest thing is consistency. Doing it night in and night out on the biggest stage on every single night that you have. And Evan hasn’t done that yet. But the Cavs need him to do that, especially with pending moves in.

Chris Fedor: We can also just admit that Evan Mobley is not ready to be the best player in this franchise. And that’s okay. He doesn’t have to be. Donovan Mitchell is. Donovan Mitchell has been. Donovan Mitchell’s been great for the Cavs. But, like, what do we talk about going into this series? One of the topics that we had on this podcast, all right, Donovan Mitchell’s the best player in the series. Who’s the second best? I got news for you. Through the first four games of this thing, it most certainly is not Evan Mobley. He missed one, played hurt through two, but it most certainly is not Evan Mobley. And then we talked about, okay, well, you know, if Evan is number two, then then who’s number three? Well, that most certainly is not a member of the Cavs either. And a member of the Cavs is not the fourth best player in the series or the fifth best player. Like, it has been slanted. With the exception of the Donovan, it has been slanted significantly toward Indiana, and that’s a credit to them. It’s also a reflection on how poorly some of the Cavs players have played through the first four games. But it’s a credit to Indiana. Like, their dudes have stepped up. They were ready for the moment. They were ready for the mission. Like I said, Top Gun, Maverick, the parameters of this mission call for something different. And their guys were ready for it. Siakam Nemhard. Aaron Neesmith can write a book on how to navigate screens. Miles Turner’s been great. So that whole conversation that we were having coming into this podcast, into the series, the first podcast that we did to preview this thing, like, it has not held up when it comes to what it was supposed to be for the Cavs. When you talked about them winning this.

Speaker A: Series, can I ask a. I know we’re late here. I just have a quick. In the spirit of the series isn’t over quick, like schematic question. So one takeaway from tonight can be that the two big lineup is cooked and it’s time for Kenny to start going small. That can be a take that you have. I don’t know that again, we talked about it. We talked about it for game three. The fact that Kenny went with it in game three says suggests to me that he believes in that the long way. But I’m just saying that can be a take. You have. It went poorly today, obviously, in many different ways. You can’t even. I don’t even know if you would attribute to the fact that you played too big, whatever. But is that. Is that decision? I’m one thing about that decision. And the easy pivot is DeAndre Hunter. DeAndre Hunter’s 1 for 7 from 3 since he came back with his injured thumb. So what do you freaking do? Dean Wade. Dean Wade’s had some moments in the series. He unshoot the ball. He unshuted. And when he does, it doesn’t go in the basket. So, like, what are you doing? And at that, obviously. Well, here you go. Genius. A genius take for you. 50 minutes at this point, you have. You’re conforming to the Pacers. Duh. They’re up 31 in the series. But, like, you can’t. If you’re doing these kind. If you’re making those kind of moves, haven’t you already kind of lost at least a battle, if not the war? What do you think?

Chris Fedor: I mean, I think if you’re looking for what gives them more of a ceiling, the answer is DeAndre. And you just hope that he breaks out of his shooting funk. You hope that he gets more comfortable playing through this injury. You hope that other things that he does on the court will be valuable enough. Because, I mean, if you’re going to downsize, it’s not Isaac, it’s not Dean. I don’t think based on the way that the first four games have gone, like, I would still have more belief in DeAndre getting out of his funk and making an impact and providing the kind of things that the Cavs traded for. Give him an opportunity to do that. If he can, he can’t. But that. That would be the way that. That I would go. That’s what I would consider. And again, like, we might be in a situation where you just try to find based on what’s in front of you and what you’ve seen through the first four games, you just try to find the best of the bad options available to you. I wouldn’t say that any of those options are great. Not sitting here pounding the table for DeAndre because he’s been so great. He’s been so effective, like even some little things. I mean, he got pushed around underneath the basket at various points tonight. He lost rebounding battles. 50, 50 battles. He had to fight foul to keep guys off the glass, too, because, you know, he was trying to box out Miles Turner, he was trying to box out Obi Toppin, or maybe it was Pascal Siakam, and he had to resort to fouling. So this isn’t a situation where it’s like, DeAndre’s been so good, so you have to go to the small ball lineup. No, it’s answering the question if you do go to the small ball lineup because you have to feel like you go away from the two bigs, like, what gives you the best possible outcome? And I still think DeAndre at his best, if he can get to that or DeAndre good. DeAndre gives you that best possible outcome more than any other option that the Cavs have at this point.

Ethan Sands: All righty. Well, we’ve reached the hour mark of this podcast, and I think it’s about time to wrap it up. So with all that being said, that’ll wrap up another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. As you can bet, if the Cavs season ends on Tuesday, that next podcast following that game will definitely have a whole lot of responses and questions from our subtext texters. So to send in your questions to get your questions answered, sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.

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